What features would you like to see in future versions of Joomla?

Nooku FM integration

Reading and developing on Nooku Framework lately, integrating this framework to the core or at least as part of the standard components will boost joomla extension development.

As a matter of fact, adding nooku architecture to Joomla will improve and separate core development from extension.

I just became a fan of nooku development, so you should check its features. www.nooku.org

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    Francisco RiveraFrancisco Rivera shared this idea  ·   ·  Flag idea as inappropriate…  ·  Admin →

    43 comments

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      • Andrew EddieAndrew Eddie commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Paulo, we've accepted contributions from Microsoft for goodness sake (who incidentally, *has* signed our JCA) so a small company is hardly going to worry anyone :) It's all about the code and everyone is invited to contribute to Joomla's core when it is appropriate to do so (and I harbour no ill will against those that choose not to contribute). I'll be seeing Shayne and Johan from Timble later this year in Sydney so I'll ask them personally whether collaboration is something they definitely do or don't want to do. Hopefully merging the common and non-unique parts of Nooku into the Joomla Platform aligns with their business plans for supporting their code and developer community :) But we'd be just as happy to accept a one line patch from yourself or anyone else as well - it really is about building code with the "freedom" of how you want to do that, whether that's you personal time, or you do it as a part of a consulting gig or your employer allows you time to work on it - whether it's one line or 10,000. There's no discrimination on that basis and it certainly doesn't matter to me that Nooku code is partially staff, partially volunteer built. That's actually a very sensible mix in my view, a mix I practice myself wherever I can!

        I think we have some stability, backward compatibility, testing and licensing hurdles to get over with Nooku code, but these are not unsolvable issues (and let's be honest, that's no worse a position than some of our current code) and I don't see anyone blocking anyone's contributions anywhere in the project on anything but technical grounds.

      • Paulo GriiettnerPaulo Griiettner commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Andrew... you impressed me, by coming here and write your points and concerns... I really thought that the core team did not care about Nooku, but I'm changing my vision...

        Would be great if both teams could work together... would be a huge step for J!Platform... I really hope your second Idea could work out. I don't know if I'm a dreamer, but I'm longing for Johan and his crew to sign the JCA, so all can be finally integrated and I would no worry about to choose between Joomla and Nooku on my next projects

      • Andrew EddieAndrew Eddie commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        So, there's a couple of ways to handle the Nooku question, and these have been discussed on the Joomla Dev list, unfortunately without the input of key Nooku staff but hopefully that will come.

        One way is to consider Nooku a separate 3rd party library like we do with PHP Mailer and others. It would drop into /libraries/nooku and people would just use bits of it as they need (begs the question how they choose). This is the least desirable approach in my opinion because there is so much duplicate effort in Nooku - things approached similarly but just a little bit different. The end result of that would be that we have two separate core frameworks. It doesn't offer a consistent approach. Besides that, if we are having more than one framework, why would we pick Nooku? Why not something far more established like Symfony, phpCake or even Zend (rhetorical question).

        The other option is the collaborative route where Nooku staff and community actually work toward integrating as much common material as possible into the core Joomla Platform, and leave the Nooku specific differences or "secret sauce" to the Nooku extended libraries, but which are now based on centralised collaboration within the Joomla Platform itself. Now, that sort of contribution requires the signing of the JCA - that's just the process that anyone has to follow that contributes anything significant to the code base, and very few people have had any hangups with it.

        The reason the JCA comes into play is because with the first option, the Joomla project is just using someone else's code, maybe fixed up a bit. But that's all they can do. However, the JCA allows for the project to, potentially, re-license the Joomla owned parts of the platform to, for example, the LGPL and that opens up whole world of other possibilities. The ultimate goal for the Joomla Platform is to remove our dependance on 3rd party libraries altogether and rewrite the last of them as native, platform classes.

        The second option is my preferred route and one that I hope Nooku staff take up if it marries with their business plan for Nooku, but either option is possible although the former makes least sense to me. If collaboration is the route that Nooku wants to take, they also get a lot of the new Joomla Platform stuff for free like JCli, JWeb and so forth - so that to me is a win-win for everyone.

        However, the one major concern I have with Nooku, and Nic has already shared this, is their attention to backward compatibility. Incorporating Nooku work into the Joomla Platform or CMS means that they loose a lot of freedom to "change" stuff as they see fit and I suspect that's actually the biggest barrier from their side towards collaborative effort (as opposed to just "publishing" code under that GPL) - so I'd be hesitant to add anything until Nooku had put the "stable" stamp on it. Automated testing for Nooku is also rather scant, in my opinion due to the aforementioned point. It's a general policy that new work being proposed for either the Platform or the CMS has a higher chance of acceptance if it is fully unit tested, and also meets our code style guidelines.

        Whatever the case, this idea can be acted on today - no need to wait. All it takes is a pull request on github. I believe there is a lot of base classes that could easily be dropped into the Platform now without any trouble (classes like KInflector come to mind). The other aspect is that with collaboration, the effort to deal with security issues is shared and it would make sense to have a unified approach to input and output filtering among other things. It does not make sense to have the Joomla Platform doing one thing and Nooku doing another - that would be just confusing to the Joomla developer community.

        If all else fails, the Joomla CMS has a libraries installer so Nooku, or Zend, or Symfony can be packaged for installation as required. That said, as a web master, I'm not overly impressed by the though of having to install a new "platform/framework" for each extension I want to install (DOCman: Nooku, JomSocial: Zend, Template X: Gantry, and so on) - would be much better if everyone gets together and works on a strong, common base, but maybe that's just how I approach Open Source :)

        First step though is to talk about this on the Joomla Developer Platform list.

      • dennmansdennmans commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        Yes! Just sort the licensing issue out - you have each other's email address. It's silly to have the GPL preventing innovation, it's there to do the opposite.

      • Wilco JansenWilco Jansen commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        @Sam: the statement that signing the JCA is mandotory because else it can put the Joomla project at legal risk is strange. Does it mean that the years before the JCA was there, we all have had legal issues at hand? Don't think so. I do understand the JCA is needed, but let the devs worry about the code and code integration before we come to the procedural part.

        Please do not start waving with procedures or even legal issues before we even had a discussion about the code. This is not helpfull of bridging the gap with parts of the development community. Instead I would like to see what is needed to integrate the Nooku part into the framework. In my opinnion it is the long awaited improvement of the current framework that has come of serious age.

      • Guillermo PalavecinoGuillermo Palavecino commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        We're using Nooku for our applications, and I think their improvements over Joomla are simple stunning. Nooku is a must and a value agregator.

      • Duke3DDuke3D commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        Embracing Nooku would be a huge step forward - toward All Together As A Whole. Part of this project would be harmonizing the GPL approach used by Joomla to improve or replace the JCA to eliminate a layer of complexity. It seems forgotten that the very act of submitting code to a licensed project is an acceptance by the submitter of the project's license as being compatible with the submitted code - it served as acceptance of an additional non-exclusive license. The vote here should be about the merits of including the features/code of NF and not the licensing discussion/revision that might be necessary during the implementation phase or a call to the JCA police.

      • CirTapCirTap commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        dumping an "alpha state" library to the core without proper thinking is not feasable for "the masses", yet NF features loads of *stable* code and modern code and OOP design principles that'd suit a CMS in 2011 and one would expect to be present.
        There's still way too much PHP4 based code "and thinking" sitting in both the CMS and it's framework (aka Platform), thanks to sticking with PHP4 while the PHP group themself had announced PHP4's end of life back in 2007...
        +3

      • jissejisse commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        Just copy the Nooku-libraries to /libraries/nooku and it's done.

      • Raleigh GuevarraRaleigh Guevarra commented  ·   ·  Flag as inappropriate

        Vote Yes, Go for integration, I also don't want to see Joomla! to die like the other Open Source packages, code losing quality and support... Nooku is the next chapter of Joomla!

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